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Good conversations are becoming rare, which only makes them more valuable.
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So let's have one from the Carter Study. This is
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the Dave Carter Show.
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Reading SOKS. I am Dave Carter, and it's a privilege,
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indeed to welcome you to the services today. You know,
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there are some conversations that you schedule because they're timely
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and others that you schedule because they're timeless, And today's
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conversation belongs in that second category. Charles C. W. Cook
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is a senior editor at National Review. Born in Cambridge,
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England and educated at the University of Oxford, he moved
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to the US in twenty eleven and became an American
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citizen in twenty eighteen. He's a prolific and very eloquent writer,
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known for his work on constitutional issues, notably free speech,
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second mimic issues, along with Anglo American history. His work
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can be found in a great many places, including The
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New York Times, Washington Post, and a great many other places.
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But here's the thing. If you're expecting a tweed jacket
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and elbow pats wearing constitutional scholar, then you really should
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get to know Charles a bit better. For example, his
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profile picture on X has him sporting this big grin
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aviator glasses and a star spangled headband that looks like
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you just stepped off the stage at a rock concert
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after opening for Ted Nutrient. It is fantastic. So it's
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a pleasure to welcome him to the show to day, Charles,
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how are you.
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Sir, I'm doing Wow. Thank you for having me.
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It's a delight to have you here. It's been a
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few weeks back about trust. You had a good Independence
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Day celebrating the nation's two hundred and fiftieth birthday.
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I did. I went parasailing with my kids, which was
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fantastic down in Vera Beach, Florida.
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Oh my goodness, this sounds like fun until you get
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to the landing part.
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Actually say that.
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Any second Airborne says the same thing.
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You know.
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No, it was fun until I got to the landing
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part because I went flying out of the harness. Of course,
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I was still attached to it. It wasn't dangerous, but I
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was and let's say, slightly less comfortable position than it
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was before.
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Oh my god. Well, I'm good for you.
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I know.
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I spent twenty years in the Air Force, but I
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never jumped out of an airplane or anything like that. So
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when I flew commercial, I tended to have a little
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bit of bourbon, though, so I landed after the plane sometimes.
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But that's about the extent of that. So you're a
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very select part of a very select group of Americans
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who spent years hoping they would one day earn the
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privilege of becoming an American. System, and I understand that
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you want to become an American from a relatively early age.
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What was it that drew you to this country so
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early on.
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Well, in the really early days, it was absolutely nothing
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to do with politics.
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Okay, it's good.
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It was family vacations to Florida and the sunshine, how
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friendly everyone was, the size of the roads, if I'm honest,
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Disney World, Roller Coast, sure, yeah. And I just instantly
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loved the US. And then we had some family friends
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in California and Arizona, in Scottsdale, Arizona and Newport Beach, California,
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and we would visit them sometimes and again, sunshine, palm trees,
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the size of the roads. But I just loved it.
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I find it quite hard to explain the extent of it,
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but there was just something about America I just wanted
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to be in America ever since I was tiny. That
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was so cool.
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What are Americans so accustomed to excuse me, that we
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scarcely notice it anymore, but would still strike you as
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remarkable about this country?
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Well, I think the degree of opportunity, the general this
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has been diminished somewhat to my chagrin, the general lack
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of interest in where someone's from or who his parents were.
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The amount of sunshine. I know that sounds a little frivolous,
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but people in America will point to Seattle as the
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rainy place. Seattle has one hundred fewer rainy days than London. Really,
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so the rainy place in America is relative to England.
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The non rainy place is so much sunshine. Americans probably
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don't realize how friendly and open they are. I mean,
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I would often tell people back in England. One of
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the amazing things just happened to me when I came
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here when I was eighteen or nineteen just to visit
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is you'd get talking to someone and they'd learn that
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you were on vacation or whatever, and they would say, oh,
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do you want to borrow my car? That would not
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happen anywhere else in the world. So I think America,
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I mean, I do think this is a really good question, Dave,
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because I think, and again I don't want to delve
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into left or right politics, okays, but there is a
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horseshoe at the moment, and the people on the ends
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of it have decided not that America has problems, which
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it does, not that there are things that need to
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be fixed, which there are, but that life is terrible, right.
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And I think you can only think that if you've
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spent an awful lot of time here and never been
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anywhere else. I just, compared to everywhere else, the United
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States is doing pretty great.
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Yeah, of course I was born here, but I did
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twenty years in the military and first deployments of different places,
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and nothing teaches you the value of our country than
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to go in places where it's just diametrically opposite. So yeah,
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I understand on that same basic topic, most Native American born,
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American born folks to accept their citizenship the way that
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I get me others have accept our eye color. It's
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just it's just a fact, right, What are you going
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to do about so? But then when you take the
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oath of citizenship, I would imagine that carries a great
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more weight emotionally, perhaps than even you anticipated.
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Was that the case, Well, it was a funny ceremony
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because I had assumed that they would list me by England,
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which is E, and then when I didn't get called
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by E, I thought G for Great Britain, but it
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turned out that I was you the United Kingdom. So
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I had to wait all the way to the end.
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And of course when you do that, you watch intently
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everyone else their facial expressions, and I found that profoundly moving,
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long before it got to me. And that was obviously
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the most moving part for me. But watching all of
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these people from all these different places in African countries, Cuba, Vietnam, Australia, Germany,
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wherever you well. And one of the big differences at
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the citizenship ceremony, and I've seen this subsequently when I've
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been to other citizenship ceremonies, is I think Americans they
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have a because they take it for granted, they have
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a slightly I don't want to say cynical, it's not cynical,
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but a slightly world weary conception of things that are raw,
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raw America. So at citizenship ceremonies, certainly in Florida. They
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play the Lee Greenwood.
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Song uh huh, yeah, yeah.
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And when it came on, all of the Americans in
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the room, people who were visiting with someone who was
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becoming a citizen sort of looked at each other and
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rolled their eyes a bit, you know, but all of
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us becoming citizens from around the world, we were unashamedly moved.
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We thought it was the best thing trying.
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Sure.
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Yeah, so you know, there's that difference. It's and you know, look,
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there's a lot of things to criticize about this too,
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because I think we have to be careful about who
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we like see and what values they have and so forth.
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But the Reagan thing about only an America can you
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become an American? It's not literally true, because you can
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go to France and become a French citizen. But there's
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nothing that is equivalent in the world to becoming an American.
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You don't have that same historical majesty that you feel
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when you become an American and you get that flag.
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I mean, I want to talk. I don't want to
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criticize other I'm sure it's nice in Uganda, but like,
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I just don't think it's the same.
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Well, we saw proof of that, I think during the
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World Cup, when folks from Europe and a lot of
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other places came here and we're just I saw a
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picture of a video of someone drinking ranch dressing from
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the bottle. Just they were just astound there at the
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amount of the plenty that we have here. And again,
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as you refer too earlier, how nice folks are comparatively speaking.
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Yeah, and you know, the most interesting thing I found
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about that was I now know, having been here fifteen years,
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all of the things that those men mostly were discovering.
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But what I forget sometimes is the perfidy of the
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propaganda to which they had been exposed, which led them
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to be so surprised. You forget when you live here,
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what they've been told about America and what they've been
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told about America by large years. Everyone's stupid. You can't
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go anywhere without being shot. There's no healthcare system, and
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you have to show an American Express before they let
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you into a hospital. One percent of the population lives
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extremely well, and that's what you see in movies, but
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everyone else is poor and backwards, you know, And they realized,
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I think that it's just not true. The other thing
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they realized that was for me, perhaps the best part
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of their experience, to live it vicariously, was there's more
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to the country than Los Angele in New York and Chicago.
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And I don't say that to speak down to those places.
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I love those places. I actually loved the whole country.
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I love everything. I don't want to get rid of
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any of it. But when you hear about America in
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Germany or England, you hear about Manhattan, you hear about
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Los Angeles, you hear about Orlando maybe and perhaps Chicago
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in Miami, but no one ever says to you, you
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know you'll have an amazing time in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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Do you know you'll have an amazing time in a
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small Florida beach town. You'll have an amazing time in
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Kansas City and suburbs. It's it's the bit that's missing.
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And they realized that, and it was so great to watch.
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It really was, it really was.
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I don't know if you're familiar of bass player for Kiss,
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Geene Simmons, Yes, if you heard him talk about his
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mom and then when they arrived here.
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I haven't. Actually I know that he's very patriotic.
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Yeah, his mom at the age of fourteen, was put
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in a concentration camp. And she's survived by virtue of
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being a hairdresser. And she pretended as if she could
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not speak German because the lady who said she could
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was executed, and she became the hairdresser from one of
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the officers that ran the camp. She survived, She survived
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so long. The fast forward her and hers like five
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year old, way old boy Jean, that wasn't his name
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at the time, but they come to the US and
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they are being sworn in, and she is thrilled, you
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know that she gets she's out, she's safe, she's away
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from all that hideous nightmare that she had lived through.
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She'd still had the tattoo on her arm, of course,
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and they asked her to raise her right hand to
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take the citizenship both and she immediately shot her right
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arm up in the Nazi salute because that's just instinctively
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what she knew. And the gentleman liministering the oath said, no, ma'am,
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and he very gently lowered her arm and said, you
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will never have to do that again. And Jane just
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broke up all the way all he was telling that story,
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and he said they get here and he discovered peanut
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butter and he was raptured. It was just amazing, the
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plenty all the things that he saw. And every night
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they watched TV until the end of the day, and
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back then at the end of the the business day,
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the station would sign off, but not before playing the
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national anthem and they would both stand up. So and
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he never forgot that, and he never forgot this in
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fact that you know, she saved him, and so is
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one of those stories that one little story in so
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many but the salute thing just really kind of you know,
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gets you.
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Yeah. I was just at Ellis Island and they have
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these stories that have been recorded on tape of people
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who moved to the US between whatever it was eighteen
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seventy and nineteen twenty five, and one of them is
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incredibly moving. It's a woman who came from Russia when
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it had just become the Soviet Union and was descending
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into tyranny and she believed she said all of the
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propaganda about the United States that she was told and
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she got to New York City and she needed to
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know where to go, and so she saw a police
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officer and she went up to him and she says.
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She asked him, how do I find this department store?
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And he told her, and she said she had been
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told in Russia that he would hit her, that the
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police officers in the United States just roamed the streets
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hitting poor people and immigrants. Oh my gosh, and she
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said yeah. She broke down in tears because he smiled
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at her and said, oh, you go up that avenue.
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In turn left beating her with his nightstick. But it's
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funny because, first off, that goes back to what we're
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talking about with people having false conceptions of the United States. Second,
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that was true in Russia.
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All right, yeah, yea, there's a little bit of protection
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going on. Exactly, if you could gather every eighteen year
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old American in one room, let's assume that you wanted
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to in the first place. But if you could, if
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you could gather every eighteen year old in America in
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one room, having recently earned something that they scarcely can appreciate,
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what would you hope they would understand about American citizenship
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before they walked out of that room.
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Well, I think the first thing is that, through no
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effort of their own, and I include myself in this,
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they happened to be born in a time that is
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superior to all others and in a place that is
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superior to all others. And obviously, in a literal sense,
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somebody whose parents are American was not going to be
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born in China. Sure, but the chance of anyone being
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born at all is astronomically small. So they benefited from
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being born in America through no effort, and then they
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inherited again. I'm including myself here as an immigrant, especially
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so because I didn't do anything for the first twenty
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six years of my life America. But then they benefited
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from the sacrifices and the actions of all of the
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people who came before them, to whom they owe everything.
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And I think to look at that and be ungrateful
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or to complain is astonishing to me. I mean, first off,
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that's how I see the world in general. So that's
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just as true Brest, France or whatever, but especially here
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in all of that work, whether it's the founders in Philadelphia,
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or the boys at Normandy or in Shiloh, or just
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those who built the Brooklyn Bridge, whatever it is, we
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got all of that for free, and I feel enormously grateful.
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I mean, I had this debate from time to time.
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I had this debate at National View with David French
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where he said that he thought that natural born citizens
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should feel more grateful for America than immigrants, And I
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think immigrants should because immigrants and their families did less
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to build America, and also they didn't really have any
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right to be here, whereas natural born citizens do. I mean,
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if you are born in the United States, you just
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don't like it. I suppose you wake up one morning
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and you find yourself American, and the way Prince Charles
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woke up one morning in the Royal family didn't like it. Well,
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I mean, I think Americans are wrong to feel like that,
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but also they didn't really choose it. But I chose
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to be here. So if I chose to be here,
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relocated myself three thousand miles and then applied for citizenship
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and then say, you know what, the country's awful, there's
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something profoundly wrong with me. But either way, my room
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full of eighteen year olds, I think I would tell
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them that they're beneficiaries of an enormous amount of work
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done by other people, combined with having won the lottery
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of life and the very least they should start from
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the presumption that they have it. Okay, you don't have
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to go doesn't mean everything has to be you know,
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fun and flowers and daisies. You can dislike stuff and
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argue stuff and have strong political views, but don't don't
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start out at eighteen saying you know, this is good
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to the world. Come on, I know that that would
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be the thing I would want to impart.
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I've liken it to to h standing on the shoulders
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of giants and thinking that you're flying right. You know,
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it's just not just not the case. Let's there's just
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some time travel for just a moment I feel indulgent.
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Let's say we could transport James Madison to modern day
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American involuntarily, Like you might be in that room full
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of eighteen year olds, but let's say we could bring
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it here involuntarily. What do you think would surprise him
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the most?
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Well. I've written a bit about this because there's this
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lie that people use when they're arguing against the Second Amendment.
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They say James Madison could never have imagined the twentieth century,
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And what they mean by that is if he'd have
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seen a handgun, he'd have been so horrified that he
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wouldn't have written the second Amendment in the Bill of Rights.
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I think that's wrong per se. But I think it's
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not only wrong. I think it's wrong in the wrong direction,
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in that the founders were dealing with the world in
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which the definition of a tyrant was King George the
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Third in the English Parliament. In other words, the relatively
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benign leaders of at that point the second freest place
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in the world. Now, I think the revolution was just,
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but the Declaration of Independence's flourishes to one side. What
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they're really complaining about is the lack of a set
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of rights this Englishman that no one else in the
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world had, and bad government or the inability to govern
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themselves to which they'd become accustomed. They're not talking about
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Nazi Germany. They're not talking about the Soviet Union or
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Communist China. They're not talking about Paul Pott. They're not
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getting anywhere close to the story you told about Gene
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Simmons's mother. So I think the first thing that James
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Madison would be astonished by is that tyranny, as he
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had understand it, was very weak. In other words, I
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think he would have been astonished by how right he was.
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In other words, the system that he set up is necessary,
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which I think it is, to fracture power, because power corrupt.
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If it's important that we have freedom of speech and
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conscience and religion, if it's important that we have the
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right to keep in bear arms and trials that we
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can assert against the government in the context of seventeen
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eighties and nineties colonial America, good grief. Imagine how proud
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he'd be of that when he learned about the twentieth century.
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I mean, he would have said, oh boy, did I
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get it right? There was nothing like that. I mentioned
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Shiloh earlier. The first time that casualties in any American
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battle exceeded you know, two or three thousand was eighteen
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sixty two. Like these are removed from the founding generation.
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So I think he'd be astonished by that. And then
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I suppose he'd be astonished by our growth and technology.
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Probably the size of the country would amaze him. It
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wasn't that they didn't think the country would be settled,
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but I do wonder if they thought it would be
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as neat and as far as it was. He would
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probably be amazed to see the extent to which the
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federal government had grown not in a good way.
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Well, which wasn't federalized in the mud puddle in your backyard?
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Right? And then that we were still here two hundred
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and fifty years and was still here, and the constitution
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he took a lead in writing is still in force.
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Yeah, I don't think he expected that a republic if
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he can keep it right and the minute it did.
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You make a living following politics, surely there must be
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times that you think that what you'd rather do is
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curl up in the afternoon with a good book. So
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how do you how do you avoid being consumed by
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the daily We touch on this earlier about the daily
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outrage cycle because I struggled with that myself from time
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to time. You just scroll the like oh Lord, and
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you have to force yourself to step away every now
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and then.
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Yeah, and not just force yourself to step away, but
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recognize that even if your job requires you to talk
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about it, the average person on the street would have
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no idea what it was that was irritating. I mean,
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I'm thinking most recently of the contratt over the Odyssey,
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which I'm happy to argue about, but I had to
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explain to my two friends, and I went to see
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the movie with what people online were saying about it,
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and they looked at me like I had seven heads.
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I mean, look, sometimes sometimes I find it depressing because
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I'm trying to do my job and everyone is being
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ridiculous and shouting at one another. But generally I'm pretty optimistic.
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I mean, as I said, I think the fact that
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I get to live now and here is amazing. I
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have a pretty nice life, wife and kids, and I
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live in a sunny free state.
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You're not that far from Disney World.
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Not exactly, not that far from the roller coasters that
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I love. It's more seriously, though, it is important for
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people to realize that the Internet is not real life,
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and a great example of this this week was Sophie Cunningham,
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women's NBA player. Now, I don't actually like women's NBA
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and I don't particularly like women's sports, and people will
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throw that at those of us who think men shouldn't
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play in women's sports and say you don't even like them,
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But it's not the point, because other people do. And
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also I know people whose daughters are really athletically talented
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and are dealing with this right now. So the fact
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that I don't like it. It's a real lack of
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empathy if you took that as your worldview. But this
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whole thing blow up because Sophie Cunningham said that men
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shouldn't play in women's sports, and they tried to say
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she was hateful, and she said, no, I'm not. Actually,
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I'm full of love, but I just don't think men
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should play in women's sports. And you get these headlines
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in the newspaper saying she's ruined it, she's ruined it,
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she's ruined her career, she's ruined her image with who.
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It's just if you could walk within a fifty mile
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radius of my house and you could talk to pretty
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much anyone I think, young, ald, black, white, Hispanic men, women, gay, straight,
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Republican Democrat, Christian, Muslim. You just ask them the question, right,
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do you think that men should play in women's sports?
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And they would say, nah, I don't, and that'll be it.
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But in the world that I inhabit every day, this
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is a live controversy. And more than that, the people
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who don't think that men should play in women's sports,
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they're sort of the aggressive weirders. And that's the important
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thing is to take a step back and recognize that
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that is not at all indicative of how normal people are.
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Yeah, you mentioned earlier about folks overseas thinking that we're
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having shootouts in every street every day, and that's the
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tunnel vision of the camera, and the same kind of
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television afflicks social media as well. I guess.
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I think that's right. And also the incentives are a
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little different, aren't they, Because if you go on social
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media and say something inflammatory, then you get a lot
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of attention. Now on Twitter, you get paid, whereas if
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you're at a kid's birthday party or you have your
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friends over for a barbecue and you just sort of
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stand there shout something ridiculous, the incentives work the other
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way around. That's when your wife comes over and says,
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so did you not do that?
435
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Yeah, And the little guys of white coats come over,
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and there's a nice place with the pad in the room.
437
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You'll be very comfortable, right exactly.
438
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Let's keep you in that room with a good book
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that you wanted to retreat to earlier in a previous
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hypothetical fireplace, coffee to you whatever you like, and the
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company of one historical figure with whom to chat. For
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the balance of the afternoon. Who gets to walk through
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that door?
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Oh, this is such a cliche. I think I kind
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of wanted to talk to Churchill. He just strikes me
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as being entertaining, erudite, very slightly crazy, had a real
447
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wait about him. Facility for language.
448
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Yeah, I think I take Churchill a great deal of brandy.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be coffee or tea.
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No, no, no, no no. He I had two people.
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He was one of them. The other was Mark Twain.
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But the church. Yeah, that's good. It's funny you said
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that because I have a book by Ron Chain up
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on you can't see it but behind me and I
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and I did glance.
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At that when you asked, Yeah, no, okay, someone who
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grew up inside one branch of the Anglo American tradition
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that has now joined the other. What do you think
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between England and America? What does each country still have
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that they could teach to the other.
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I would say that there's a certain form of dry
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humor that the English have retained that is unique. Perhaps
463
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the Australian in some quarters have it too, But that
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is one thing that I missed. Now. It's not that
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Americans are not funny. They are, but it's different. And
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I suspect that whatever it is that leads to that
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sort of humor is also what makes so many English
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people such good actors. We seem to have a disproportionate
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number of actors, and I think this. I think it's
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because there's a different way of communicating. Now, in some ways,
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I much prefer the way Americans communicate, because they're much
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more direct that The example I always give is that
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if some kid in America is not very good at
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playing the violin, and you would go home after a
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recital and your wife would say she's not very good
476
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at playing the violin, which is great because then you
477
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know exactly what that means. But in England your wife
478
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would say she's not the world's best violent player. Is
479
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everything is indirect, But I do think it leads to
480
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a lot of space between the words that creates that
481
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sense of humor. So I don't know if you could
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00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.319
teach that, but that's one thing I missed. The thing
483
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.559
in America above all else that I would want, and
484
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.559
in fact, I think Britain does need to be taught,
485
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:28.319
is that there is an enormous virtue in get up
486
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.680
and goism and against a culture that is obsessed with
487
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.039
leveling everyone and ensuring no one's ever inconvenience and everyone's safe.
488
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.039
I just if you look at England right now, I'd
489
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:43.400
say this was no pleasure at all, because my family
490
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:49.960
still lives there. It is not going anywhere fast. Their
491
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.720
growth is anemic. Their politics is a mess. People are
492
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:58.599
unhappy with one another. It's censorious. And it's because they
493
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:03.279
don't have the American attitude, which is okay, that's nice,
494
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:09.720
I'm gonna do it anyway, right. They're too deferential, they're envious,
495
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:17.440
they have convinced themselves. I think that so welfare ism
496
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.119
is the height of civilization, and I just don't think
497
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:23.039
it is. I think, although I think he's a bit
498
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:25.599
crazy and have some issues with him, I think will
499
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.359
Elon muscular space X is the height of civilization. I'm
500
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:31.039
just gonna build a rocket and I'm going to do it.
501
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.559
Yeah. Well, as a direct American, I would say perhaps
502
00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:38.119
I should have found a way to clone Lady Thatcher.
503
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.599
Yes, but then she was very pro America, and she
504
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.960
admired America, and she thought Britain should be more like
505
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.079
American and she had this famous line where she said
506
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.640
that in the twentieth century. All of the problems that
507
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.119
afflicted Britain had come from Europe and all of the
508
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:56.799
answers had come from America.
509
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:02.400
Oh was that very well received at the time or
510
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:03.000
did it well?
511
00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:05.559
I think it was probably better received than it would51200:30:05.559 --> 00:30:09.640
be now because it was in the eighties and a51300:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.160
lot of people still remembered World War Two, but we51400:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.680
were still allied together fighting the commis sure.51500:30:16.200 --> 00:30:16.920
Yeah, that's true.51600:30:17.319 --> 00:30:25.279
I think now that'd be less that'd be less enthusiasm.51700:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.680
Probably, So final question. I spent the fourth of July51800:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.759
in the company of two of my grandkids, an aspiring51900:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.599
artist ten years old and a four year old grandson52000:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.880
just full of mischief. It's delightful to watch. And the52100:30:37.880 --> 00:30:40.559
first thing he said to me was, Grandpa, did you52200:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.720
bring me a present? And I just kind of granted52300:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.680
him maybe, and I'm thinking, hell yeah, and he giggled52400:30:47.720 --> 00:30:50.680
and he loved it. So you spent years explaining America52500:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.359
to Americans, and you've chosen to become one of us. First,52600:30:53.359 --> 00:30:55.440
thank you for that. As a veteran, thank you, Thank52700:30:55.480 --> 00:30:57.400
you for becoming one of us and choosing to become52800:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.319
one of us, the country's betty for having you if52900:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.039
fifty years from now, one of your grandchildren asked you53000:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.319
what was America supposed to be? Looking back fifty years53100:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.240
from now, what would you tell them?53200:31:09.960 --> 00:31:11.640
Do you mean, what was it supposed to be from53300:31:11.640 --> 00:31:13.400
the beginning or in.53400:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.200
From the beginning, or what it was, what it is53500:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.039
right now, and how it could change between now and then,53600:31:19.359 --> 00:31:21.200
you know, depending on the trends.53700:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.319
Yeah, I mean, I hope it doesn't change too much.53800:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.799
It's pretty great. It needs fixing in some ways, but53900:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.680
I hope it doesn't change too much. What was this54000:31:33.759 --> 00:31:42.279
supposed to be? The decoration of Independence is to me54100:31:42.519 --> 00:31:45.960
the answers to the question in that it lays out54200:31:46.000 --> 00:31:53.039
at the beginning this interesting combination of British assumptions and54300:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.960
universalistic small l liberalism in the way that people used54400:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.319
to use the word. And you know, when I listen54500:32:01.400 --> 00:32:05.720
to people talk about America's flaws and hypocrisies, many of54600:32:05.759 --> 00:32:10.720
which are real, what they're really saying is compared to54700:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.039
the thing you said you were, you didn't do that.54800:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.759
I mean, this isn't anyway a unique insight, but you know,54900:32:19.839 --> 00:32:23.480
no one says, I just can't believe that Mozambique has55000:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.359
not lived up to its promises. No one says I'm55100:32:27.440 --> 00:32:31.799
very upset that Portugal isn't what it should be. I mean,55200:32:31.839 --> 00:32:37.319
what is Portugal supposed to be? But America laid out55300:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.400
this ideal and all the people who have criticized it55400:32:40.480 --> 00:32:45.799
successfully have channeled that. So I don't want to give55500:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.359
that Globe answer and say just go to the founding55600:32:48.359 --> 00:32:51.799
because they were wrong about stuff too. But I really55700:32:51.839 --> 00:32:56.880
do think that between the Declaration of Independence and the55800:32:56.920 --> 00:33:02.240
federalist papers and early newspapers and the country, we know55900:33:02.880 --> 00:33:07.440
the roadmap. I know. You throw in Calvin Coolidge and56000:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.279
the speech in nineteen twenty six and a bit of Reagan,56100:33:11.480 --> 00:33:14.480
and you know, we know what we're supposed to be.56200:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.039
I don't think it's a it's a big mystery. I mean,56300:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.440
there's I'm talking around this question of bit. But there's56400:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.880
a there's a very weird thing that happens at the56500:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.920
moment where some people in America think that we should56600:33:28.039 --> 00:33:33.160
have no immigrants at all and that only supposedly heritage56700:33:33.200 --> 00:33:36.119
Americans count. Now, obviously I don't agree with that, being56800:33:36.119 --> 00:33:38.599
an immigrant. On the other hand, you have people who56900:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.240
think we should just have completely open borders, and that57000:33:42.359 --> 00:33:46.079
America is bad. And then you have people in my57100:33:46.240 --> 00:33:48.759
mode who will say, well, it's an idea, it's a57200:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.519
creedal nation. But the problem with that in many cases57300:33:53.599 --> 00:33:55.480
is that people who say that they don't think we57400:33:55.519 --> 00:33:59.759
should actually enforce it. So you can't really have a57500:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.440
nation unless you're willing to demand of people who come57600:34:03.519 --> 00:34:07.759
here that they fit in with the creed. So with57700:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.800
my own kids, I'm trying to teach them that creed57800:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.559
right now. You have to be careful because you can't say,57900:34:14.679 --> 00:34:16.639
you know, well, if people don't agree with it, you58000:34:16.679 --> 00:34:21.239
shouldn't like them or something. But I mean, I'm literally58100:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.079
living what you're saying, you know, I'm trying to teach58200:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.119
them this is what it's about, this is what it's for,58300:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.199
this is what it should be. It's not just whatever58400:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.559
anyone thinks it is. It's not just whoever wins the58500:34:30.599 --> 00:34:34.800
next election. It's not just it's not you have to58600:34:34.800 --> 00:34:37.119
be on the mayflower. But it's also not just well,58700:34:37.159 --> 00:34:38.480
if you come in and then you say, hey, I58800:34:38.480 --> 00:34:40.400
think it should be a communist country, then that's equally58900:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.880
it's not there's a whole set of ideals that we've59000:34:43.880 --> 00:34:48.039
had throughout our history. That we need to keep. So59100:34:48.199 --> 00:34:50.679
I mean, in fifty years time, I would hope that59200:34:50.719 --> 00:34:54.119
we had stayed on the path of keeping them and59300:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.239
not rejecting them, because I don't think I just don't59400:34:57.280 --> 00:34:59.679
think America would work if we reject them. I don't59500:34:59.679 --> 00:35:02.119
know what what the point of it would be. And59600:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.679
then I don't know where anyone would go. Maybe this59700:35:04.800 --> 00:35:05.039
tie is.59800:35:05.000 --> 00:35:05.679
An excellent point.59900:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.559
Yeah, maybe this ties it up because you said, you know, well,60000:35:09.519 --> 00:35:13.519
what's different about being an American citizen? And then I60100:35:13.559 --> 00:35:19.920
said that Americas is different. Well, there's nowhere else for60200:35:20.039 --> 00:35:27.039
people to go if this place disappears, so we kind60300:35:27.039 --> 00:35:27.679
of got to keep.60400:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.159
It head Well, yeah, yeah, it's just it's interesting. But60500:35:32.519 --> 00:35:38.960
so often whenever they criticize and just floggers, basically rhetorically,60600:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.079
they're using American and Western standards again, standing on standing60700:35:43.119 --> 00:35:44.920
on the shoulders of giants and not realizing it. They60800:35:45.000 --> 00:35:47.039
think it's an epiphany that certain things aren't the way60900:35:47.079 --> 00:35:49.119
that they should be. But those are those are our61000:35:49.320 --> 00:35:53.119
ideals to which we strive haltingly at times, but to61100:35:53.199 --> 00:35:57.880
which we strive great point, where else would they go? Palestine?61200:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.280
Yeah, but even France, right, And I'm a Francophile. I61300:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.960
love it, but you can't rely on France. I mean, look,61400:36:07.000 --> 00:36:08.760
you were in the military. You know this better than61500:36:08.840 --> 00:36:15.639
I do. From the Battle of Trafalgar to nineteen forty five,61600:36:15.800 --> 00:36:18.800
when World War II is brought to a close, the61700:36:18.920 --> 00:36:24.239
British had naval supremacy, and in nineteen forty five that61800:36:24.440 --> 00:36:29.440
naval supremacy gets handed over to Americans intact. And thank goodness,61900:36:29.559 --> 00:36:34.280
because the Americans were the only country other than Britain62000:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.960
at that point who had the same conception of what62100:36:38.199 --> 00:36:42.199
to do with naval supremacy, that is, keep the seas open,62200:36:43.000 --> 00:36:48.159
allow trade and the free movement of people, and enforced62300:36:48.199 --> 00:36:52.000
basic human dignity. In the British Empire obviously had gone62400:36:52.039 --> 00:36:58.599
around abolishing slavery in the eighteen forties onwards. Now, there62500:36:58.719 --> 00:37:07.599
is no other potential naval force at the moment at62600:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.960
least that could do the same thing as America does,62700:37:11.199 --> 00:37:14.920
except if they really built it out China. But if62800:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.079
China did that, we would have a completely different world. Correct,62900:37:18.199 --> 00:37:22.239
every would change. And so you know, it's not a63000:37:22.320 --> 00:37:25.679
theoretical thing. If we don't have America, who do we63100:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.199
expect to play those roles? The British empire is gone.63200:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.800
It will not come back. There are no European countries63300:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.199
that can do it, and the one nation that could63400:37:35.239 --> 00:37:38.920
theoretically do it, if it really embarked on a building spree,63500:37:39.239 --> 00:37:39.840
wouldn't do it.63600:37:40.480 --> 00:37:40.599
Right.63700:37:41.360 --> 00:37:44.079
But you know, you say, well, these eighteen year olds63800:37:44.119 --> 00:37:49.719
in this room, I think that's taken as a as63900:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.400
a as a given. I think they think that's a64000:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.239
law of the universe. I think they think that's just64100:37:55.360 --> 00:37:56.400
how things are.64200:37:56.679 --> 00:37:58.360
As Actually America's gratoric gravity.64300:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.880
Yeah, and it's not. So I'm trying to teach my64400:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.159
kids that too. Well, good luck.64500:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.679
I think you'll do a great job, folks. You can64600:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.599
follow Charles on National Review Online. You can find him64700:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.639
at Charles Cwcook dot com. This is Charles CW. Cook64800:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.920
with an E dot com. Charles, thank you so much,64900:38:16.960 --> 00:38:19.719
sir for joining us. Thanks for hay, really appreciate it.65000:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.760
We can do this again sometime, folks. That's Charles CW.65100:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.920
Cook on the Dave Carter prog Conversation.65200:38:28.960 --> 00:38:30.880
Dave Carter Show.65300:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.800
Let me ask you a question here. First of all,65400:38:42.920 --> 00:38:48.320
wasn't that a great conversation with Charles? Just amazing gentlemen65500:38:48.440 --> 00:38:52.199
and prescient observations. We'll talk more about that in just65600:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.039
a moment, but let me ask you another question. We65700:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.239
talked to Charles a few moments ago about curling up65800:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.760
with a good book for an afternoon. Well, what if65900:38:59.760 --> 00:39:03.360
you've the take in compelling information through listening to it66000:39:03.400 --> 00:39:07.239
as opposed to reading it while you're in luck? Because66100:39:07.239 --> 00:39:08.800
all you got to do is hol you cursor up66200:39:08.880 --> 00:39:12.599
to your search tab look at ricochet dot com, where66300:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.159
you can find a plethora of compelling minds and interesting66400:39:15.400 --> 00:39:19.639
personalities and perspectives, all on the Ricochet Audio Network. For example,66500:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.320
just last week, Charles C. W. Cook joined James Lylax66600:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.840
and Steve Hayward on the Flagship Podcast to discuss the66700:39:26.880 --> 00:39:30.400
new blockbuster hit movie The Odyssey, which the lovely and66800:39:30.480 --> 00:39:32.840
gracious missus Carter and I will be seeing pretty soon here,66900:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.239
so you can check that out. Do you check out67000:39:35.320 --> 00:39:38.199
a podcast called Chicks on the Right, which actually is67100:39:38.239 --> 00:39:41.519
surging on social media right now as these ladies take67200:39:41.559 --> 00:39:45.519
on the latest political fads and shallow thought and counter67300:39:45.639 --> 00:39:50.079
that with humor in facts for that matter. Hillsdale College67400:39:50.119 --> 00:39:53.199
has a podcast on the Ricochet Audio Network, as does67500:39:53.400 --> 00:39:58.800
The Daily Signal, which recently featured historian and scholar Victor67600:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.440
Davis Henson on the current undoing of a revolution that67700:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.559
was fifty years in the making and why that might67800:40:04.599 --> 00:40:09.159
be a good thing. You got the American Enterprise Institute's podcast.67900:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.039
Glynn Lowry has a show, and there's Law Talk with68000:40:13.480 --> 00:40:17.760
professors Richard Epstein and John You. Always compelling, always interesting.68100:40:18.039 --> 00:40:20.480
They do a lot of deep diving in the legal issues,68200:40:20.519 --> 00:40:23.280
and don't forget if you like the writing, you won't68300:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.119
find anything better than on Ricochet either. Our contributors have68400:40:27.199 --> 00:40:32.119
included Ronald Reagan speech writer Peter Robinson Cheers executive producer68500:40:32.239 --> 00:40:35.840
Rob Long, both of whom were the co founders of Ricochet,68600:40:36.400 --> 00:40:39.079
Pat Save Jack, David Limbaugh, and even yours truly shows68700:40:39.159 --> 00:40:42.559
up on the main feed as contributors as well. You know,68800:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.039
once Rush Limbaugh described Ricochet as consisting of people who68900:40:46.079 --> 00:40:47.639
don't have to have like you're the smartest people in69000:40:47.679 --> 00:40:50.440
the room, because they really are the smartest in the room,69100:40:50.440 --> 00:40:53.000
and for my money, they're oftentimes the most interesting as well.69200:40:53.800 --> 00:40:55.800
Head on over to ricochet dot com or I C69300:40:55.960 --> 00:40:59.519
O C H E T dot com and check it69400:40:59.559 --> 00:41:12.480
out for your self. You know there's something Charles said69500:41:12.519 --> 00:41:14.480
today that I suspect we'll stay with me for a while.69600:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.639
Those of us who were born here, and we seldom69700:41:18.679 --> 00:41:22.920
think about having chosen America, we know more chose our69800:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.199
citizenship here than we chose the color of our eyes.69900:41:26.679 --> 00:41:30.440
The Constitution was already here, The Declaration was already here.70000:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.599
Constitution and declaration, the freedoms and institutions were already here,70100:41:35.719 --> 00:41:39.639
waiting for us when we were born. Other people built them,70200:41:39.719 --> 00:41:43.920
other people defended them. Are their people argued over them,70300:41:44.000 --> 00:41:49.599
corrected them, and sometimes died for them. Charles described young70400:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.480
Americans as the beneficiaries of an enormous amount of work70500:41:53.960 --> 00:41:57.400
done by people who came before them. Simply by finding70600:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.840
themselves here, they have won, in some sense, the lot70700:41:59.880 --> 00:42:04.119
of of life. That doesn't mean America has always lived70800:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.679
up to his promises. It means that those promises were70900:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.760
extraordinary enough to be worth keeping. And perhaps that's something71000:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.880
an American who chose this country can remind those of71100:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.360
us who simply inherited it. I told Charles today that71200:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.360
as a veteran, I'm very glad he chose to become71300:42:21.400 --> 00:42:24.239
one of us. But his story leaves me thinking about71400:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.000
those of us who never had to make that choice.71500:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.800
We inherited America. The question is what do we intend71600:42:30.880 --> 00:42:31.920
to do with our inheritance.71700:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.320
The Dave Carter Show is a production of the Carter Study,71800:42:41.440 --> 00:42:46.840
Home of conversations worth remembering until next time. Thank you71900:42:46.960 --> 00:42:47.639
for joining us.
